Comments on: Do Apollo and WPF compete with each other? http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/ code = joy Tue, 06 Jan 2009 04:11:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Chris Bernard http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7253 Chris Bernard Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:30:31 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7253 Well heck, I'll be so bold as to say I think this is a completely fair assessment of where all this stuff stands at the moment. But it's also a moving target right? There's probably a bunch of interesting things that will happen at Microsoft and Adobe that will change the dynamics and placement of some of the technology on this chart. I'll go so far to suggest that in the very near future some companies might develop apps not with one or the other type of technology (insert poison here) but with multiple types of technology. Just like we have multi-channel experiences in the physical world we're probably going to have multi-channel digital experiences too. I can envision scenarios where an Apollo app will make alot of sense for a customer scenario where you're looking at 10 to 12% of your audience being on Linux or Mac and the remainder on Windows. But I can also envision alot companies going, "Hey, we can serve the majority of our audience better with a WPF application than an Apollo app on Windows, let's spin up one of those too." Now this sounds crazy from a development perspective and TOC perspective but it's not from a customer perspective, whereas differentiation and the ownership of a superior experience is a competitive benefit. It's why we see co-branding in consumer electronics and cars for example. The driver of what technology folks will embrace will depend on alot of these things right? Like how easy is something to build? How hard is it to implement the desired spec on the platform? How much does it cost to maintain? These will be fuzzy issues with all this stuff--or perhaps not, we may find that tools and workflow in some technology offers some clear advantages to developers or designers. If you look across the spectrum I'm not sure it's obvious that there's a clear winner across the landscape of stuff like XUL, GWT, Apollo, Flash, FLEX, WPF/E and WPF. I think they all bring some advantages to the table depending on your perspective and they will all have their appropriate uses. Thought provoking post Mike and great new jargon, 'platforminess', I love it! Chris Bernard User Experience Evangelist, Microsoft (So yes, these means I work there.) Well heck,

I’ll be so bold as to say I think this is a completely fair assessment of where all this stuff stands at the moment. But it’s also a moving target right? There’s probably a bunch of interesting things that will happen at Microsoft and Adobe that will change the dynamics and placement of some of the technology on this chart.

I’ll go so far to suggest that in the very near future some companies might develop apps not with one or the other type of technology (insert poison here) but with multiple types of technology.

Just like we have multi-channel experiences in the physical world we’re probably going to have multi-channel digital experiences too. I can envision scenarios where an Apollo app will make alot of sense for a customer scenario where you’re looking at 10 to 12% of your audience being on Linux or Mac and the remainder on Windows.

But I can also envision alot companies going, “Hey, we can serve the majority of our audience better with a WPF application than an Apollo app on Windows, let’s spin up one of those too.” Now this sounds crazy from a development perspective and TOC perspective but it’s not from a customer perspective, whereas differentiation and the ownership of a superior experience is a competitive benefit. It’s why we see co-branding in consumer electronics and cars for example.

The driver of what technology folks will embrace will depend on alot of these things right? Like how easy is something to build? How hard is it to implement the desired spec on the platform? How much does it cost to maintain? These will be fuzzy issues with all this stuff–or perhaps not, we may find that tools and workflow in some technology offers some clear advantages to developers or designers.

If you look across the spectrum I’m not sure it’s obvious that there’s a clear winner across the landscape of stuff like XUL, GWT, Apollo, Flash, FLEX, WPF/E and WPF. I think they all bring some advantages to the table depending on your perspective and they will all have their appropriate uses. Thought provoking post Mike and great new jargon, ‘platforminess’, I love it!

Chris Bernard
User Experience Evangelist, Microsoft
(So yes, these means I work there.)

]]> By: David http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7252 David Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:34:14 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7252 I think for completeness-sake, you should include Java in the graph. It's less webby, but more cross platformy. Or has the world completely given up on Java on the desktop at this point? I think for completeness-sake, you should include Java in the graph. It’s less webby, but more cross platformy. Or has the world completely given up on Java on the desktop at this point?

]]> By: Phillip Kerman http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7251 Phillip Kerman Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:03:48 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7251 I think your comment: If you are a Microsoft .NET / WPF developer and don't care about being cross platform, then you are probably going to use WPF. If you are a web developer, then you are probably going to use Apollo. ..is fair. But Scott's comment that it comes back to how badly do people want X-Platform. While its important to some, others its not. is not entirely fair. That is, I do plenty of apps that don't need to be cross platform but I'll STILL use Apollo (probably). I think your comment: If you are a Microsoft .NET / WPF developer and don’t care about being cross platform, then you are probably going to use WPF. If you are a web developer, then you are probably going to use Apollo.
..is fair. But Scott’s comment that it comes back to how badly do people want X-Platform. While its important to some, others its not. is not entirely fair. That is, I do plenty of apps that don’t need to be cross platform but I’ll STILL use Apollo (probably).

]]> By: enefekt http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7250 enefekt Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:03:20 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7250 Hybrid definition: a thing made by combining two different elements; a mixture Hybrid

definition: a thing made by combining two different elements; a mixture

]]> By: Ashwinee http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7249 Ashwinee Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:56:28 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7249 Hi Mike, Great article on Apollo vs WPF/E.In fact it will help me convincing my people that WPF is not MS version of Apollo. I downloaded the Apollo alpha and will try it at home. I also installed the Apollo runtime and believe me it was quite hassle-free,hence a joy. I also downloaded some sample apps and installed them also(yeah installed them).It showed a message like publisher UNVERIFIED and system access UNRESTRICTED (I think this is something that can be taken care of while publishing the app). I had earlier made a color picker in Flash and made windowless in SWFKit (http://www.ashwineedash.com/template_permalink.asp?id=96#96).If someone has to use it ,he/she does not have to install anything.Just doubleclick on the icon that is on the Desktop and it will open up and press ESC button to close it. Can we do something similar incase of an Apollo app ? I also installed the Fresh.air and saw this post and the reason I am viewing this post in a browser is that I didnot see the Apollo vs WPF/E chart in Fresh. Any explanation would be welcome. Hi Mike,

Great article on Apollo vs WPF/E.In fact it will help me convincing my people that WPF is not MS version of Apollo.

I downloaded the Apollo alpha and will try it at home. I also installed the Apollo runtime and believe me it was quite hassle-free,hence a joy.
I also downloaded some sample apps and installed them also(yeah installed them).It showed a message like publisher UNVERIFIED and system access UNRESTRICTED (I think this is something that can be taken care of while publishing the app).

I had earlier made a color picker in Flash and made windowless in SWFKit (http://www.ashwineedash.com/template_permalink.asp?id=96#96).If someone has to use it ,he/she does not have to install anything.Just doubleclick on the icon that is on the Desktop and it will open up and press ESC button to close it.

Can we do something similar incase of an Apollo app ?

I also installed the Fresh.air and saw this post and the reason I am viewing this post in a browser is that I didnot see the Apollo vs WPF/E chart in Fresh.

Any explanation would be welcome.

]]> By: bitwize http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7248 bitwize Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:45:29 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7248 Stating the obvious; Deskspace, Netspace, Webtop. *yawn* Perhaps; Midspace, Dubspace, Devspace, Appspace. But considering the price/platforms howabouts; Freespace! ;O) Stating the obvious; Deskspace, Netspace, Webtop.

*yawn*

Perhaps; Midspace, Dubspace, Devspace, Appspace.

But considering the price/platforms howabouts; Freespace!

;O)

]]> By: Shiv http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7247 Shiv Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:31:43 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7247 Just Downloaded the Apollo alpha, looks great so far. In fact I'm posting this comment from within Fresh.air. Before I comment on your APF/Apollo, I'd like to give some feedback on the Alpha if I may. 1. The "browser" needs to have some basic context menus available such as Back/forward, Save as etc. 2. While I'm entering this comment I don't see the cursor in the fields as I type. 3. The "home" and "end" keys don't work either. On to the WPF and Apollo post... I believe WPF, XBAP, WPF/E are competition. The fact of the matter is that these technologies are Windows technologies, and is Apollo is intended for this space then they compete. I personally use these technologies extensively for production work (just so you know :)). I also use Flex. I love the end result, but I totally detest the effort of getting there. The Debugger totally and I mean totally sucks. For Apollo to have a good chance at least for the Windows folks out there and there are millions for of us/them than other platformers, you've got to make some huge strides in many areas and the IDE is paramount. Sorry for the rant. We want to use Apollo for some things and I'm personally looking forward to the release date, but I so dread the whole development experience (what especially after the incredible VS.NET 2005 and Orcas experience) in Flex Builder/Eclipse 3.2.2. Just Downloaded the Apollo alpha, looks great so far. In fact I’m posting this comment from within Fresh.air.
Before I comment on your APF/Apollo, I’d like to give some feedback on the Alpha if I may.
1. The “browser” needs to have some basic context menus available such as Back/forward, Save as etc.
2. While I’m entering this comment I don’t see the cursor in the fields as I type.
3. The “home” and “end” keys don’t work either.

On to the WPF and Apollo post…
I believe WPF, XBAP, WPF/E are competition. The fact of the matter is that these technologies are Windows technologies, and is Apollo is intended for this space then they compete. I personally use these technologies extensively for production work (just so you know :)). I also use Flex. I love the end result, but I totally detest the effort of getting there. The Debugger totally and I mean totally sucks. For Apollo to have a good chance at least for the Windows folks out there and there are millions for of us/them than other platformers, you’ve got to make some huge strides in many areas and the IDE is paramount.

Sorry for the rant. We want to use Apollo for some things and I’m personally looking forward to the release date, but I so dread the whole development experience (what especially after the incredible VS.NET 2005 and Orcas experience) in Flex Builder/Eclipse 3.2.2.

]]> By: Sean Voisen http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7246 Sean Voisen Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:17:02 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7246 Mike, this is really hard to grasp when you keep throwing around all these technical terms like "webiness" and "cross platforminess." :) Plain English, please ... Mike, this is really hard to grasp when you keep throwing around all these technical terms like “webiness” and “cross platforminess.” :) Plain English, please …

]]> By: Scott Barnes http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7245 Scott Barnes Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:08:38 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7245 I'd agree 80% but disagree 20% heh. I throw in WPF .XBAP (which then begs the question of web-platforms vs desktop platforms) and I guess it comes back to how badly do people want X-Platform. While its important to some, others its not. Windows XP has a 5 year term left, Vista's growing in adoption day by day so sooner or later this discussion about .XBAP will eventuate. Still, nice post though Mike I'll give points for being fair. -- Scott Barnes Developer Evangelist Microsoft. I’d agree 80% but disagree 20% heh.

I throw in WPF .XBAP (which then begs the question of web-platforms vs desktop platforms) and I guess it comes back to how badly do people want X-Platform. While its important to some, others its not.

Windows XP has a 5 year term left, Vista’s growing in adoption day by day so sooner or later this discussion about .XBAP will eventuate.

Still, nice post though Mike I’ll give points for being fair.

–
Scott Barnes
Developer Evangelist
Microsoft.

]]> By: dan http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2007/03/18/do-apollo-and-wpf-compete-with-each-other/comment-page-1/#comment-7244 dan Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:40:59 +0000 http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-7244 DeskerNet, I like it. How about Web Desk apps, or Rich Desk apps (nice short abbreviations of what we already call them)... might as well call a spade a spade. DeskerNet, I like it. How about Web Desk apps, or Rich Desk apps (nice short abbreviations of what we already call them)… might as well call a spade a spade.

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